Comments on: Elements of Progression in Games http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/ Game development, design, and discussion Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:13:09 +0000 hourly 1 By: aschearer http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-374 aschearer Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:36:48 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-374 <p>Interesting, looks like we have some good candidates to add to [updownleftleft.com](http://updownleftleft.com)!</p> Interesting, looks like we have some good candidates to add to [updownleftleft.com](http://updownleftleft.com)!

]]> By: Tom http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-373 Tom Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:33:57 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-373 <p>I think it's kind of an unlockable. It's usually the same kind of gameplay, but extended, like earning access to special moves in a fighter or something. Gated skill stuff.</p> <p>Early pay-off is an interesting question, and I guess super important when you've only got a minute or so to hook someone. In my situation the initial player investment is slightly higher: odds are they'll give me five or ten minutes of their time to really get a sense of the game.</p> <p>One thing that's interesting to me is a currency progression mechanic, not quite sure how it fits in to this. But basically a way to give access to further rewards in a partial way, so that you're always getting a little more. Picking up gold in Diablo or GTA are great examples of this: the currency itself doesn't do anything, but it allows you access to new stuff, so you feel like you're always getting something new.</p> I think it’s kind of an unlockable. It’s usually the same kind of gameplay, but extended, like earning access to special moves in a fighter or something. Gated skill stuff.

Early pay-off is an interesting question, and I guess super important when you’ve only got a minute or so to hook someone. In my situation the initial player investment is slightly higher: odds are they’ll give me five or ten minutes of their time to really get a sense of the game.

One thing that’s interesting to me is a currency progression mechanic, not quite sure how it fits in to this. But basically a way to give access to further rewards in a partial way, so that you’re always getting a little more. Picking up gold in Diablo or GTA are great examples of this: the currency itself doesn’t do anything, but it allows you access to new stuff, so you feel like you’re always getting something new.

]]> By: aschearer http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-370 aschearer Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:37:04 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-370 <p>Exactly. You're point about the cost of the different approaches is really insightful. Trying to take advantage of story-driven progression is going to cost a lot more in terms of planning, design, and content than skill-driven progression. That's a whole new axis by which to evaluate these different schemes. </p> <p>Right now I'm primarily trying to identify when these mechanics "pay off". For example, you cite RE5's weapon-leveling mechanic. This mechanic doesn't start to reward the player at least until he reaches the first new level. Even then it might not start to be really enjoyable until you've earned a few levels. What can we do to make sure that the player reaches the next level and continues leveling up? This is where you might invest in a more expensive, more immediate pay off method such a story.</p> <p>Also, what type of progression mechanic would this RPG element fall under? It doesn't quite fit into any of the above categories, is it gameplay progression or unlockable progression? I don't think so, it's more like "pimp out my character"-progression.</p> Exactly. You’re point about the cost of the different approaches is really insightful. Trying to take advantage of story-driven progression is going to cost a lot more in terms of planning, design, and content than skill-driven progression. That’s a whole new axis by which to evaluate these different schemes.

Right now I’m primarily trying to identify when these mechanics “pay off”. For example, you cite RE5′s weapon-leveling mechanic. This mechanic doesn’t start to reward the player at least until he reaches the first new level. Even then it might not start to be really enjoyable until you’ve earned a few levels. What can we do to make sure that the player reaches the next level and continues leveling up? This is where you might invest in a more expensive, more immediate pay off method such a story.

Also, what type of progression mechanic would this RPG element fall under? It doesn’t quite fit into any of the above categories, is it gameplay progression or unlockable progression? I don’t think so, it’s more like “pimp out my character”-progression.

]]> By: Tom http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-369 Tom Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:27:34 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-369 <p>Okay, I think I better understand what you mean. In your progression example, skill and mechanic progression are basically the same thing, except skill isn't explicitly gated, it's gated by user behaviour, right?</p> <p>This is a pretty cool subject for me because I've been thinking a lot about low-investment high-yield progression mechanics for the game I'm working on at EA. For instance, challenge progression is a lot cheaper to do than mechanic or unlockable progression, because you can number-tune challenge progression. With the other two you have to generate brand-new content to fill them up.</p> <p>Resident Evil 5 has a great example of both unlockable / mechanic progression paired with a purely statistical unlockable system. You can buy / find new guns, which presents you with somewhat new gameplay stategies. Each new gun is a fixed cost from an art and animation perspective. Where it gets clever is their addition (and this is a staple of RE) of an upgrade mechanic that turns each new gun into a deep progression tool. But each level of progression for a gun is significantly cheaper than a brand new gun: it's just a matter of tuning and balance.</p> Okay, I think I better understand what you mean. In your progression example, skill and mechanic progression are basically the same thing, except skill isn’t explicitly gated, it’s gated by user behaviour, right?

This is a pretty cool subject for me because I’ve been thinking a lot about low-investment high-yield progression mechanics for the game I’m working on at EA. For instance, challenge progression is a lot cheaper to do than mechanic or unlockable progression, because you can number-tune challenge progression. With the other two you have to generate brand-new content to fill them up.

Resident Evil 5 has a great example of both unlockable / mechanic progression paired with a purely statistical unlockable system. You can buy / find new guns, which presents you with somewhat new gameplay stategies. Each new gun is a fixed cost from an art and animation perspective. Where it gets clever is their addition (and this is a staple of RE) of an upgrade mechanic that turns each new gun into a deep progression tool. But each level of progression for a gun is significantly cheaper than a brand new gun: it’s just a matter of tuning and balance.

]]> By: aschearer http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-368 aschearer Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:24:34 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-368 <p>Hey Tom, glad you liked the post. I don't think they're quite the same actually, though certainly related. When I think about challenge progression I'm thinking of, say, Tetris. As you reach higher levels it speeds up and gets harder, but the skills necessary to play never change. On the other hand, when I think of skill progression I think of something like a 2-d figher. The move list/items/etc are constant throughout the experience but you learn how to perform those moves in more sophisticated ways.</p> <p>Anyway, that's my 2c I'm looking forward to hearing what you think!</p> Hey Tom, glad you liked the post. I don’t think they’re quite the same actually, though certainly related. When I think about challenge progression I’m thinking of, say, Tetris. As you reach higher levels it speeds up and gets harder, but the skills necessary to play never change. On the other hand, when I think of skill progression I think of something like a 2-d figher. The move list/items/etc are constant throughout the experience but you learn how to perform those moves in more sophisticated ways.

Anyway, that’s my 2c I’m looking forward to hearing what you think!

]]> By: Tom http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-367 Tom Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:14:22 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-367 <p>I think what you're talking about could be abstracted a little more - aren't skill and challenge the same in this context? Basically, increased difficulty paired against experience?</p> <p>Cool post though; I'll have to think on this a little.</p> I think what you’re talking about could be abstracted a little more – aren’t skill and challenge the same in this context? Basically, increased difficulty paired against experience?

Cool post though; I’ll have to think on this a little.

]]> By: aschearer http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-365 aschearer Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:45:34 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-365 <p>Hey Gornova, I think you're absolutely right. I'm not sure what the name would be for it but what you've described does seem like another possible progression mechanic. Part of what you are talking about is story-progression, it seems to me, but the aspects dealing with choice and compounding decisions strikes me as being distinct.</p> Hey Gornova, I think you’re absolutely right. I’m not sure what the name would be for it but what you’ve described does seem like another possible progression mechanic. Part of what you are talking about is story-progression, it seems to me, but the aspects dealing with choice and compounding decisions strikes me as being distinct.

]]> By: Gornova http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/2009/08/elements-of-progression-in-games/comment-page-1/#comment-364 Gornova Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:29:09 +0000 http://www.anotherearlymorning.com/?p=960#comment-364 <p>A good point of game design. I don't think that is possibile to have an exaustive list of all elements of progessions, because differente element can be mixed and for player and designer too can't be obviuous to organize into category.</p> <p>I've read many articles about this topic and maybe some progression that you don't mention is choice. Think about an rpg, like gothic 1 or 2. You are nameless hero, a bandit without name. You can join one of three faction into your journey, but only one at time. This can be an element both of progression and re-play value, don't you think? If i can't explore some part of game world if i don't join to particular faction, maybe i can play again, with other factions. This can be a good element of progression: in one play, you can't explore everthing of your game. what do you think?</p> A good point of game design. I don’t think that is possibile to have an exaustive list of all elements of progessions, because differente element can be mixed and for player and designer too can’t be obviuous to organize into category.

I’ve read many articles about this topic and maybe some progression that you don’t mention is choice. Think about an rpg, like gothic 1 or 2. You are nameless hero, a bandit without name. You can join one of three faction into your journey, but only one at time. This can be an element both of progression and re-play value, don’t you think? If i can’t explore some part of game world if i don’t join to particular faction, maybe i can play again, with other factions. This can be a good element of progression: in one play, you can’t explore everthing of your game. what do you think?

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